MMT & Private Debt Dialogue PART II

[Part I here]

A. So, last time you discussed how understanding how money really works leads to insights that can help make the real economy perform better, and increase the real material well-being of a country. And all this talk about problems with a “national debt” is just non-sense. It seems only to serve the rich who would like to impose “austerity” on the rest of us. You focused on the national debt and how the household analogy is false, but still haven’t explained the crash of 2008. You said it was and still is about private debt.

B. Yes.

A. How?

B. Well, we talked about how all the so called “national debt” is mirrored exactly by the net financial assets of the private sector. So what is usually called the national debt should really be thought of as a good number that reflects the amount of assets the private sector holds. Government spending is what allows that accumulation in the private sector.

A.  Yes

B.  However, not all money is created through government bonds.

A. What do you mean?

B. The vast majority of money is created by banks out of thin air. When banks make loans, someone walks away with money, an asset, a plus in their account. Yet the bank also records that loan as an asset, a plus in their account. This increases the effective money supply (more or less what is known as M2 in the US), which in turn increases effective demand in the economy. This effect is large, with the vast majority of money actually being private bank-credit money, not money based on US bonds. [Note this has nothing to do with reserve requirements, which under the modern banking system are an anachronism, but with the ability of banks to make loans and get reserves later, which the central bank has to accommodate (bc it targets interest rates) and record the loans as pluses.]

This seems fine when the economy is doing well. But it means the effective money supply is largely based on private debt. The debt ratchets up until a point where the non-financial private sector is deeply indebted to the finance private sector and cannot easily take on new debt. Eventually, with some slight downturn in the economy, there is a loss of creditworthy borrowers, so the system collapses and with it a great portion of the effective money supply.  Thus exactly when the economy needs a boost in demand, it instead suffers a sharp contraction. And the banks are the ones holding either the money or the ownership of assets that are defaulted on. The non-finance private sector loses greatly to the benefit of the finance private sector.

A. So what can be done about this?

B. Well, mainstream economists do not even recognize the factors that matter in this scenario. So they literally have nothing useful to say about fixing the economy in this situation. With their bad theory they are like monkeys with razor blades in an operating room – worse than useless.  Just one example:  they don’t understand the process where private bank-credit money is created only due to the demand for loans by the private sector. So they thought that essentially giving money to the banks, “quantitative easing”, would stimulate the economy. But with no creditworthy borrowers, that money just sits there. To really understand what is at the heart of this finance-based depression, you have to look to economists who understand the interactions of finance factors & the economy in the first place.

Among them there is one view that if both 1) the MMT policies we discussed in Part 1 were followed and 2) better banking practices followed, the economy would not fall into the trap just mentioned. Aggregate demand would be provided through intelligent fiscal policy, not widespread private debt. And the banking sector would be regulated in a way so as not to allow bad assets to back loans and to limit the many financial shenanigans the wealthy created to game the system. So the system would be more stable. Warren Mosler presents perhaps the best clear statement of the needed bank reforms, and regardless of any other changes discussed here, they should be implemented ASAP to stop much of the current harmful or downright corrupt practices in the current system.

A. Would this work?

B. Maybe. The worry is that the effective money supply is still created largely through private bank lending. This provides a huge incentive for the banks, which under this system are likely to be rich and influential, to always, little by little, manipulate regulations in their favor. This is known as “regulatory capture” and in turn leads to an unstable buildup of private debt and the finance sector gaining at the expense of everyone else. Remember, the banks gain no matter what under the current system – either they earn directly from their loans and dubious investment vehicles in the good times, or in a downturn, they earn from claiming the assets that the private sector used as collateral and by being propped up by the government because they are “too big to fail”. Privatized (finance sector) gains and socialized losses. The headlines in recent years that the 1% has done well by the crash of 2008 are sadly true.

A. Is there an alternative?

B. Possibly. It is possible to simply not allow banks to create private bank-credit money. Rather than banks being able to credit borrowers’ accounts with money out of thin air, they would have to lend already existing money, either that they already own, or that they have pooled from investors seeking interest on money they actually hold. A loan would not show as a plus on their balance sheets, but as a minus on someone’s balance sheet – real money that they or their investors have transferred to a borrower. And they would not be allowed to sell their loans, but would have to keep them on their own books. This incidentally would give them a large incentive to raise their scrutiny of borrowers, and thus increase the quality of loans in the first place.

A. Why is this important?

B. This would mean that banks would no longer in effect create new money. They would only be intermediaries, uniting willing investors actually transferring their existing money to borrowers, nothing more. Crucially, this means that the money supply would not collapse in an economic downturn, what is known as a “cascading liquidity crisis”. Lenders might lose money if borrowers did not pay them back, but the total amount of money in existence would remain the same, and so would effective demand. Also, banks would not be earning money through creating money out of thin air. The system would thus both be much simpler and tremendously more transparent, and additionally the banks would be less powerful to change rules in their favor. A crash like 2008 would simply not be possible under this system.

A. So are there any drawbacks to this system?

B. Well, some think that under this system the less wealthy would actually suffer.

A. Why?

B. Because under the current system, even the less wealthy, at least when the economy is good, are sometimes able to get loans and financing for projects. Under the new system, the less wealthy would depend on existing holders of money to finance them, argued by some to mean putting economic power even further into the hands of “the haves”.  And some seem to think that having a private system that can create money in response to private demand is good, a dynamic system that responds to the needs of the economy naturally.

A. What do you think?

B. We must balance the true, full cost of the proven inbuilt instability of the current system with the possible good and bad of an alternative system. The true costs of instability in the current bank-credit money system are seldom weighed as a whole, nor presented in a way the general public can understand. What is the true and total cost to the public of the crises of 1907, 1929, 2008, the many smaller crises such as S & L, the Japanese asset price bubble, LCTM, banking crises in Finland, Sweden, Asia, Russia, Mexico, Argentina, Ecuador, Uruguay, and throughout Europe, the dot.com and housing bubbles, the bailouts of AIG, Northern Rock etc.? The true cost of the current system to the non-finance private sector are probably much much greater than is commonly thought, if proper accounting standards were used to measure it.

Also, there are other very real costs from the inherent instability and uncertainty of the current system. These costs arise from the uncountable suboptimal (due to high uncertainty regarding inflation, interest rates, and possible recessions and depressions) decisions on investment, insurance, and allocation of resources made by big business, government, and private households alike. The alternative system would be much more stable on every front, and there would be real gains in efficiency from this increased stability.

A. So that is the main downside some see to an alternative system where banks cannot create private credit money?

B. Yes, it seems the main concern by some seems to be that the little guys won’t easily be able to get loans and the system will not provide enough financing in general for the private sector.

But there seem to be good ways to finance worthy needs without banks creating money. There are lots of investors willing to risk their existing money to earn interest on loans. Additionally, there are many tried-and-true alternative finance options, such as tontine-type mutual funds, pari-mutuel mutual funds, and other banking arrangements that would provide plenty of access to funding for the private sector without allowing banks to create private bank-credit money.

Overall, the huge gain in stability would help everyone, from big business down to individual households.

A. So why isn’t the change tried?

B. The banks would fight it tooth and nail for a start.

Also, although directly using government bonds has worked well in the past, there has never been a pure system of this type – the banks always managed to force governments to allow them to create private bank-credit money.
Notable successful examples include US greenbacks, and the 700 years that the English/UK government used tally sticks. As we know, this period of British economic history was overall highly successful. But tally sticks and greenbacks were only part of their respective systems. The modern proposal for systemic change would essentially make the entire system run purely on what are in effect tally sticks or greenbacks.

A. So people would be afraid to try a system that has never been tried in full it seems.

B. Yes.

But there has never been a system like the current mostly bank credit-money one that has NOT suffered crashes like 2008. It may make sense to finally try something new.

At any rate, the take-home message is that the crash of 2008 was about private bank-credit money and private debt. Any full understanding of the real economy must take into account the long history of bank-credit money recessions and depressions and of ratcheting private debt causing real trouble in the real economy, and the close empirical correlations between changes in private debt, private credit money, effective demand, financial regulatory capture, and recessions/occasional massive depressions.

In Part 1 we discussed how MMT insights show ways to raise the productivity of the real economy to its natural limit, and thus the material well-being of a country. The theoretical debates concerning MMT have largely been worked out, and it is just a matter of time before the logic of it is accepted by the mainstream.

However, the debate on the full scope of the impact of the private credit-money system on the real economy has only begun to be worked on again in earnest.

Maybe implementing better fiscal policy and more logical banking regulations, as many MMTers propose, is enough to stop crashes like 2008 from occurring, and the ongoing regulatory capture of the finance system by the very rich.

But it may make sense to also change the finance system to a system where circulating Treasury notes alone forms the money supply, and banks can only serve as intermediaries of this money, and not create private bank-credit money through escalating private sector debt that alters effective demand, causes socialized losses and privatized gains (only for the finance sector), and ultimately leads to massive busts for the non-finance private sector.

A. Yes, that may make sense.

[PART I of this dialogue]

Help on MMT related dialogue

[This is a VERY rough draft of a dialogue/narrated animation aimed at regular folks highlighting important misconceptions about the economy. I have to travel for a bit and rather than going back and researching every term and point made, I am throwing it on the web for help. (I imagine the folks at MikeNorman.com will have some pointed comments here or there).

Please be nice. Some MMTers will disagree on certain points, and I am happy to have those debates elsewhere. What I am mainly looking for now is to get the terms right (on bond and treasury operations etc), any gaps in the flow of the discussion, and a clear exposition of the points I am trying to make even if some points are different from any particular MMTers view.

 PART 2 will deal with some further issues regarding private credit money and the crash of 2008, and address some of the points MMTers may disagree with.] 

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A.  [An Average American, although this discussion applies to any sovereign country that, asserting its sovereignty, has a free-floating non-convertible fiat currency. Note that Eurozone nations such as Greece have voluntarily ceded this sovereign ability].

A. “There do not seem to be clear explanations for the 2008 crash, and thus no fixes to the economy since then. All I hear on TV is that we are in trouble because of the national debt. I’ve heard MMT has a different take. What is different and why is it important?”

B. Well, the media focuses largely on the so called “national debt” and presents it as somehow the problem. Yet the crash of 2007/8 was largely due to problems with private debt. So to start with, they are dealing with the wrong kind of debt. This is partly because they wrongly portray the nation as like a household – a household in deep debt is clearly in trouble (as the crash of 2008 showed). But a nation with what they call a “national debt” is not in trouble at all. This is the household analogy, and it is false.

A. Why?

B. Because a Sovereign government is not like a household.

A. Why not?

B. Because it creates its own money. It can always create more to buy what it wants and pay any debts denominated in its currency. The debt held by foreign governments is not a problem. It is held in Dollars. [transaction thing with the fed here, as Mosler describes it]

A. Is it really so simple?

B. It looks complicated, but actually sovereign governments fund themselves by printing bonds. To simplify for a moment, just think of those bonds as money, which at times they directly have been, such as with Greenbacks. There is no need to have bonds run through the Federal Reserve to “make” money. We can come back to this, but for the moment, just think of Treasury Bonds as money.

A. Ok. So let’s imagine US money just as bonds printed by the government. Now what?

B. Well, first, that foreign debt. If China wants to “cash in” on their bonds, as the News channels try to worry us about, the US just credits their account with that many dollars. Done. They can then continue to sit on it, or buy things wherever dollars are accepted, including, of course, in the US. They own about 1.3 Trillion dollars in bonds. If they want to go on a trillion dollar international shopping spree, good for them. It would be harmless, even good for many who would prefer to have those dollars rather than their current assets.[Note Ralph Musgrave’s useful comment here]. Trust me, in the global economy, a trillion dollars is doing no one any harm. The same holds with the other big holders of US bonds (Japan, Brazil, Europe, Russia). If they want to go on a shopping spree, like the Japanese were feared for doing in the 1980s, fine. When the Japanese bought Rockefeller center, they didn’t cart it back to Japan. They just managed it like any other owner would.

A. OK, so there is no problem “paying” even the largest international holders of US debt. And if they did cash in, they would just be changing bonds to dollars and spending into the international or national economy. How does this all work IN the United States though?

B. The government also prints money into existence through bonds. It can fund anything we think is good for the public. Health care, roads, bridges, the military, the coast guard, NASA, pure research.

A. Weimar! Zimbabwe! Crowding out!

B. Are you ok? Sounds like you are having an attack of some kind.

A. Those are the terrible things that will happen if the government prints all the money it wants. Gold Standard! Hyperinflation! National Debt!

B. There you go again!

A. But it will! We will have hyperinflation! We should have sound money, the gold standard! And the government will “crowd out” the private sector!

B. Slow down there. Let’s look at these things one by one.

B. First let’s look at the so called “national debt”. Now, as we saw, the government prints bond money out of thin air. So it is not “owed” in the conventional sense of the word to anyone. Now here is a curious fact – all that “debt” you always hear about is mirrored exactly by the private sector – you, me, Joe Sixpack, small and large companies, as private “net financial assets”. That money printed out of thin air is what allows all of us in the private sector to accumulate assets and save money without the economy stopping. It could better be called the numerator for “net private assets”. Sounds a lot better, doesn’t it?

A. So if the government did not have this “national debt” or “national private assets” we could not all accumulate wealth at the same time?

B. Exactly. This can be shown historically. EVERY SINGLE DEPRESSION in US history was marked by a falling “national debt”. A low national debt has always meant greater, not less poverty for the private sector. The private sector needs and wants a huge so called national “debt”.

A. I can’t wrap my head around this. So – when the government creates more of this national debt, better called national private savings, then everyone in the private sector is able to accumulate more assets and money? That sort of makes sense.

B. You got it. The smaller the so called “national debt”, the less assets and money the private sector – you and me – can hold. We want and need the “national debt” – it is a good thing. Which is why it should be thought of as net national private assets.

A. Ok, that seems logical. But wait – don’t we run the risk of becoming Weimar or Zimbabwe? If the government prints more and more money, its money will become devalued and eventually worthless.

B. Good question. First of all, situations like Weimar Germany and modern Zimbabwe were cases of massively failed states in special situations. Their whole society was destroyed, and Weimar was not even truly sovereign monetarily. The failure of their money was because of the collapse of the capacity of their government to govern. Think about it – I would happily accept Swiss Francs or Norwegian Krone for payment, because they have strong effective governments that I trust will back their money, and well organized productive societies that I trust will be able to back up their Krone and Swiss Francs with real economic productivity. I would not make the same bet with Somalian money, or Liberian money. Not because it is paper money, but because their governments are not effective, and their economies are not productive and well organized.

A. But still, it is simple supply and demand. If you keep on printing money, even US dollars, then there will be inflation.

B. Well, first I wanted to deal with hyperinflation. Hyperinflation just does not happen in non war-torn countries or countries not dominated by corruption or ruled by crazy people. But yes, you should of course be worried about normal inflation.

A. So…?

B. Normal inflation is controlled by reducing spending and/or taking enough dollars back out of circulation to keep things in equilibrium. This is done in modern economies by fiscal policy and taxation.

A. But taxes are levied so we can pay for government, not to control inflation!

B. No. Remember – the government can issue all the Treasury money it wants to spend on anything it wants. If it is the effective government of a productive society its money will be accepted. It taxes not to pay for things, but to drain any money that might lead to inflation back out of the economy. It can easily do this at just the right rate to keep inflation at any level it wants. Including zero.

A. This is crazy! This is not what the textbooks say!

B. It is simply the way the system works in practice. The textbooks are wrong.

A. Ok, let’s assume for a minute you are right. The government can create and spend any money it wants as long as it balances it in a way to avoid inflation. Why don’t we spend less and have less taxes?

B. We can. That is a political choice. How many good roads and bridges, good research programs like NASA and medical research, good public healthcare and how strong a military do you want?

A. So we can have zero inflation and choose to have whatever level and quality of public goods we want?

B. Yes. With one more qualifier – it has to be within the bounds of the real economy.

A. What do you mean by “real economy”?

B. Well, every country has an upper limit on how much they can actually produce at any given time based on the overall quality of organization and technology. That is a real limit, not an abstract numerical limit. The US probably came close to that limit in the Second World War. The thing to notice, though, is that that limit was vastly, incredibly greater than what anyone would have guessed in the 1930s during the Great Depression.

A. So we need a war?

B. No. Not at all. We could mobilize in much the same way, but instead of modifying Detroit auto lines to make tanks, we could mobilize to fix our infrastructure, provide universal Medicare, fund NASA and pure research more, pay teachers more, and make sure our military and coast guard maintain their quality. Oh, and take much much better care of our veterans, disabled, and elderly. For example.

A. And all this new spending wouldn’t be inflationary?

B. Not in our present state. We are like the US was in the 1930s. The US is performing far below its true productive capacity. We could get much closer to the real capabilities of the economy, which incidentally would lead to something close to full employment as well. No nation is truly performing at its optimal real productivity when there are loads of idle but willing workers.

A. So why don’t we do this?

B. Mainly because people, including most prominent economists and virtually all politicians, believe that a government is like a household. They don’t understand that the way money works in a sovereign nation is not at all like a household. And they believe that the so called “national debt” is a problem. They don’t understand that that number actually reflects the net private assets of the people, and that it is a good thing.

A. But wait – this is mathematically impossible. What about all those interest payments on our debt? I know about compound interest – it will quickly become unsustainable.

B. Remember, we don’t have to sell bonds to make money – the bonds themselves can be money. And we don’t have to pay interest on bonds. We choose to.

A. What?! Loans always carry an interest burden. Impossible!.

B. This is the household analogy again. Bonds released by a sovereign government are special. People want them because they pay taxes in them. They can be circulated just as Treasury notes, with no interest at all. And thus our national “debt” need not pay any interest at all.

A. But then all those bond buyers in the private sector and abroad won’t buy dollars, so how will we get money?

B. First, they will hold enough to buy dollar denominated goods. But regardless – so what? The US does not need anyone to buy bonds to make dollars. Remember, a sovereign nation makes bonds out of thin air, and people want them so they can pay taxes, which then makes them acceptable to everyone else in an economy. People were just as desirous of a Treasury Note, a greenback, as for any other dollar. That is because dollars, like Krone and Swiss Francs, come from a clearly politically stable, effective government of a productive society. If Norway and Switzerland went to interest free Treasury notes tomorrow, I would gladly still accept a payment in Krone or Swiss Francs. The Norwegian and Swiss governments, like the US, are clearly able to maintain highly productive societies and effective governments, and as long as they do so, their money will be valued both in those countries and abroad.

A. OK, so this seems like a way for nations to become or stay wealthy, by maximizing the real economy, thus raising the material well-being of the country. Sounds like a good idea.

B. It is.

END PART ONE

PART TWO HERE

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